staxxy: (Ein needs brains)
[personal profile] staxxy
why on earth would *anyone* think that putting a tunnel for cars RIGHT NEXT TO THE WATERFRONT is a good idea?

Sure a new viaduct may suffer the same structural issues at some point in the future that the one we have now has. BUT NO ONE HAS BEEN KILLED BY IT IN AN EARTHQUAKE EITHER.

Does anyone *actually* believe that a tunnel would be SAFER than a new viaduct??

and how many times do we have to say "no really Nickels, this is just STUPID, build a new viaduct" before he stops trying to push this tunnel fantasy on the city?

talk about not being up for re-election.

*beats head*

(apologies to those not of this area)

Date: 2007-03-07 05:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] evillinn.livejournal.com
I've been out of touch with the news for the last couple of days. Are they trying to push for that again? I thought the tunnel idea had been nixed completely???

I wonder if we can figure out another way for our city to become a laughing stock over transportation issues? Certainly we can. Some pockets of the US aren't laughing at us yet, which means we just arn't trying hard enough.

Date: 2007-03-07 11:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danaid-luv.livejournal.com
No, those few outlying areas are still rolling off their chairs at *my* city government. :/

Date: 2007-03-07 05:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] burgunder.livejournal.com
fwiw, I already voted against the tunnel with my absentee ballot.

Date: 2007-03-07 06:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sistawendy.livejournal.com
A civil engineer acquaintance of mine says that, as you suggest, the geology there is not helpful. They're having enough problems as it is with the seawalls. Even if it that wasn't a problem, there's still the question of financing. The feds have already said no thanks (I don't blame them after the Big Dig.) and at this point I certainly wouldn't count on the state. Surely there's a way to make a new viaduct less ugly and noisy than the current one.

Date: 2007-03-07 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] liberpolly.livejournal.com
why do you want a viaduct? it will fall. i say, make a boulevard.

Date: 2007-03-07 06:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] m1sfit-t0y.livejournal.com
That's two of us. Make a damn (dam?) boulevard.

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Date: 2007-03-07 06:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trauma-hound.livejournal.com
Actually modern tunnels are pretty safe. What are your concerns?

Date: 2007-03-07 06:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gwywnnydd.livejournal.com
The fact that it's digging through fill dirt, less than 3 blocks from Elliot Bay?
The fact that it'd be digging *under* extant buildings (ref: Big Dig, Boston MA)?
Those are my big two, from a safety standpoint. From a political point, the fact that voters have already killed this idea twice in referendum should be a sign that We DON'T WANT IT.

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Date: 2007-03-07 06:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vorona.livejournal.com
Nickels must have friends or business associates who stand to gain profits and/or prestige from being involved in the tunnel. I am beyond cynical about City of Seattle construction projects. It all comes down to grabbing profits, prestige, and power - screw the public, screw the workers - and Paul Allen probably gets some swag out of this.

We have to get Nickels out of office, but let's be careful with the alternatives. This thing has a lot of heads.

Date: 2007-03-07 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] staxxy.livejournal.com
I miss Norm.

Date: 2007-03-08 05:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lawst.livejournal.com
This isn't just Nickles, this is Gregoir.

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Date: 2007-03-07 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wendolen.livejournal.com
I think that a new viaduct is a dumb idea, since there's only about a 10' section of the current one damaged. So I certainly voted against that.

Not exactly

Date: 2007-03-07 07:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] javagoth.livejournal.com
From the DOT site (http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Questions.htm)

Why can’t the viaduct and seawall just be repaired?
The Alaskan Way Viaduct and Seawall are past their design life and repairs can no longer extend their lives. The viaduct and seawall do not meet today’s seismic standards and were also damaged in the 2001 Nisqually Earthquake. Ongoing inspections have revealed the viaduct has moved and settled, and the seawall’s timber relieving platform has been eaten away by tiny marine crustaceans, called gribbles. A retrofit would still leave the structure vulnerable to another earthquake, and the cost is not a wise use of taxpayer dollars. Project engineers estimate that a retrofit would cost 85 to 90 percent of the cost to replace the entire structure.

Re: Not exactly

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Re: Not exactly

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Date: 2007-03-07 06:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] smarier.livejournal.com
I'm 100% for rebuilding the Viaduct, but I need to correct something you said.

People have been killed in similar designed structures during an Earthquake. Remember the freeway (was 808?) which collapsed during the bug Earthquake in San Fran about 15 years ago, same design as the current Viaduct.

Date: 2007-03-07 06:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] staxxy.livejournal.com
I am not talking about the same design elsewhere. i am talking about *here*.

How many times have you seen the "in a more serious earthquake, downtown seattle will slide into the sound" video/lecture? If there were a major earthquake, people in a tunnel would definitely die. People above ground might live.

Date: 2007-03-07 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] intrepid-reason.livejournal.com
I voted against both...not going to happen I know, but I would prefer they spend the money to figure out a real mass transit system. Dangit.

Date: 2007-03-07 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vulture23.livejournal.com
Actually, I do believe that a tunnel will be at least as safe as a new viaduct. (Plenty of viaducts and other elevated highways *have* killed people in earthquakes; I don't know offhand how statistics of viaduct failures compare to tunnel failures, but my impression is that viaducts do not come off very well here.)

Also, half the point of the tunnel was that the seawall there needs replacing anyhow. Whether we build a tunnel or not, we're going to be digging the crap out of that area within a decade or so; it really seems to make a lot more sense to do it all at once. (Though I don't know whether the current Tunnel Lite™ includes seawall improvements.)

Honestly, I have a strong feeling that if we rebuild the viaduct instead of putting in a proper tunnel, in a few decades people will be cursing us as shortsighted cheapskates.

Date: 2007-03-07 07:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] staxxy.livejournal.com
see Gwywnndd's response. She hit on all of my points.

Date: 2007-03-07 07:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] javagoth.livejournal.com
He keeps pushing it because it's the alternative that he thinks will make him look best because it addresses the need for a transportation route that is not just surface streets and more mass transit but is not a large viaduct blocking the views of those who can afford to live downtown.

I'm voting "No" on both though because the new proposed viaduct will have walls that take away any view one might have while stuck driving in slow traffic on the thing...

Eh - there's got to be a better way somehow...

Date: 2007-03-07 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] girljim.livejournal.com
A few assorted thoughts to add to the mix:

1. I love the view from the Viaduct. It was pointed out on NPR a while back that the drive through Seattle's waterfront on the viaduct is the one chance many of us get to see the gorgeous view. Any proposal that is NOT a new elevated structure essentially sells the view to the highest bidder, with developers winning, and those of us not rich enough to live where there's a view losing.

2. Having been in the construction industry in Seattle for most of the last decade, the only thing I can say with certainty is that the tunnel proposals don't have a snowball's chance in hell of coming in on time or on budget. Any time you dig in Seattle, there are unforseen and expensive problems. Add the usual "digging in Seattle" factor to the "below the water table" bit, and you have a recipe for huge cost overruns, huge delays, and huge problems.

3. I don't personally think the idea of a boulevard or surface-level solution is practical - I currently commute 2 days a week on the viaduct, at 6:30am, and it's pretty crowded. I can't imagine all that traffic at surface level moving at all. Similarly, if you're going to build a tunnel, build one that's big enough for the traffic volume - 3 lanes in either direction, not this "tunnel light" bullshit.

4. Tunnels give me the creeps. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Date: 2007-03-07 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] staxxy.livejournal.com
excellent points. I had not considered #1, but I am on exactly that same page for 2 & 3. and I actually *like* tunnels in general, just not this one.

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Date: 2007-03-07 07:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] schmuckythecat.livejournal.com
Nothing wrong with a tunnel there. It wouldn't be bored, it would be cut and cover. Dig a ditch, insert concrete tubes, cover it up again. They build similar things across Victoria Harbor in Hong Kong, or the BART tubes under San Francisco Bay. They just sink the concrete tubes, connect them up, then drain the water from inside when they are done.

Date: 2007-03-07 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] staxxy.livejournal.com
all of those areas have far more solid ground they are digging into than we have here.

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Date: 2007-03-08 01:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] staxxy.livejournal.com
hahahahahahahahahaha

Date: 2007-03-08 02:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ozitonaranjo.livejournal.com
The viaduct, as is, is stinky, noisy and an eyesore. The new, improved viaduct is just a bigger, stinky eyesore. No other city is building elevated highways anymore. Especially next to a waterfront.

I prefer the surface + transit option. After all, traffic is going to be totally fubar during construction anyway.

Date: 2007-03-08 05:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] patty-puke.livejournal.com
I voted for the tunnel, and all modern testing indicates I'm not particuarily stupid. I might very well be retarded however. I once dreamed of riding in a 25-mile undersea tunnel between England and France, and surely such things cannot exist.

Date: 2007-03-08 05:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] staxxy.livejournal.com
*sigh* You aren't a particularly stupid person, by everything I have seen of you.

I do not trust that any tunnel built in seattle will be up to the specs of the one that goes under the Channel.

I spent way too much time around the local construction industry to believe that this will be built with anything more in mind than the lowest possible bid, which (I am certain) means it will fall quickly into disrepair.

Plus, the Channel Tunnel is not built on a fault line.

Honestly, I do not have an issue with tunnels elsewhere. I have an issue with tunnels in that PARTICULAR place.

But I have the biggest issue with a mayor who refuses to listen when the city votes against his proposals. he seems to have this "they didn't REALLY mean it" attitude about the seattle voters.

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Well, duh!

Date: 2007-03-09 02:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnco57.livejournal.com
It's like, way safer, you know, because it's , like, underwater.

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