on Humility -

[staxxy]

There's a difference between humility and self-debasement. Humility, to me, means knowing you're good but not being above teaching what you know and giving of yourself. It bugs the hell out of me when someone is recognized for their work then turn around and say crap like, "I'm not that good," or "I really don't deserve this." That's not humility, that's insulting the persons who thought you were good enough to be recognized for your work. It's also insulting to yourself.

from lawst

It is important for everyone to realize this difference.

Comments

[wendolen.livejournal.com]

Humility also includes not being above learning more, IMO.

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

true enough.

[eyeblend.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

[bittergourd.livejournal.com]

oh my... that sums up how i have lead my life and how much i need a change...

thank you for sharing this, stax

♥

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

you betcha. I thought it was brilliant enough that I HAD to share it.

Easy to say for some...

[saintcynr.livejournal.com]

Many people have gone their entire lives without knowing how to take a compliment, and it's not as easy to shed the self-effacing response as some would like to think.

So, yes, it's true, but no, it's not as though the person is trying to be an ass, and there are far worse problems to have.

Re: Easy to say for some...

[deliciouspear.livejournal.com]

Well I'm WRETCHED at excepting compliments, but I also don't tell people that I suck at shit I'm good at.

mebbe I'm just a freak.

Re: Easy to say for some...

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

my point, in posting this, is that being self-effacing is *not* being humble.

It is one thing to say "I can do better than this" and another to say "this isn't very good", you see?

My point is not that people who have problems shedding self-effacing ways are assholes. My point is that this is *not* being humble, it is having low self-esteem.

As an example:

When someone tells me I look fabulous and I say "I do what I can" I am being humble; when I say "nah, I am all bloated and my hair is a wreck", I am having low self-esteem.

There is an ego-centricity inherent in really low self-esteem. It is the "they're all judging me and watching me and waiting for me to fuck up" sort of ego-centricity.

My point in posting this is not to say that people with low self esteem are ego-centric assholes. It is to more clearly define the terms.

and, I have to add, at no point did I say this was a character flaw. Nor is that anywhere in the quoted passage.

It is not for me to decide what traits are flaws or not. It is only for me to help others decide which traits they want to keep and which this wish to drop, and to help them on that path if they ask me to. :)

[deliciouspear.livejournal.com]

Amen mah sistah.

To quote Nelson Mandela:

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is
that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our
darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves: Who am I to be
brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Who are you not to be?
Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing
enlightened about shrinking, so that others won't feel insecure
around you."

[faeredelune.livejournal.com]

Duly noted. That insulting the complimenter is an interesting twist and I'd hate to do such. When complimented even if I feel modest in light of it I try not to come off as self effacing because there are occasions when some people do that they become perceived as attention pandering or some such. So in other words I try to avoid self effacing as being confused with attention whoring isn't my wish either. Dignity is a hard and important lesson.

That said I also agree with saintcynr.

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

dignity is a crucial lesson as well. You can accept assistance gracefully and with dignity, and never be seen as weak. You can acknowledge compliments, even those you disagree with, graciously. :)

you should come back to this post and see my response to saintcynr.

[sirriamnis.livejournal.com]

"...that's insulting the persons who thought you were good enough to be recognized for your work."

Wow, that is like telling someone with low self-esteem that because they don't think they are attractive, they are insulting/devaluing the opinions of people who do. And about as productive.

!

[saintcynr.livejournal.com]

That's what I was getting at. :)

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

you should see my response to him.

and this goes directly back to what I said about being a gracious giver and getter. whether or not you agree with the compliment, you can be gracious in response. It doesn't mean you have to sleep with them, but you can say "thank you" instead of saying "who asked you?".

you have *made* this rant. They are just different words baby.

[bewtifulfreak.livejournal.com]

I think the best way to accept a compliment is to just offer a sincere "Thank you". By doing so, nothing is implied as to the veracity of the compliment one way or another, and yet it is accepted graciously and with gratitude. It's the sort of response that even those of us with low-self esteem can manage if we make a point of it; it doesn't involve completely accepting the truth of the compliment in the moment it's given, but not arguing against it does actually help allow the compliment to be absorbed. :)

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

:D exactly.

Which is why I have given that very instruction to folks in the past. :D

[vorona.livejournal.com]

I think this varies with culture and personality. I don't believe it's one-size-fits-all. People have linguistic quirks, quirks of expression, cultural habits, superstitions or vestiges of superstitions. These deeply outweigh current love-yourself pop-psychology (which I do think can be somewhat useful for self-help) because they are much, much, much older. I don't think people mean to be insulting or unenlightened, they're just saying what comes naturally for whatever reasons.

I don't have a problem with letting people know repeatedly in different ways (it does not have to be a direct statement) that they're valued and respected. I think I have a pretty high tolerance for this, though. Maybe it gets under other people's skins more than it does mine. Huh.

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

I agree that cultures have more in them than can be encompassed by pop-psychology.

My point in posting this is to say that being self-effacing is not the same as being humble. There *is* a difference, and it is important to know what that difference *is*.

[faeredelune.livejournal.com]

This topic is also one I'd really like to share in my journal as well ... would you mind if I do?

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't mind, and you are free to quote anything I have said in my responses here, to link to here or to use the quote (credited of course) from lawst (as she has said "the more people that see it, the better")... I have another link for you too... just a minute, I will find it. Another post you might enjoy...

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

as soon as LJ lets me get to my memories, I will put the link to that post in a comment on your post. :D

[cynickal.livejournal.com]

Well that's arrogant.
If I tell someone that "I'm not that good" it's beacuse I recognize my ability, goals and potential. "I'm not that good" mean I know how good I could be given more time and dedication.

Someone telling me that I've insulted them for taking the pitiful 3 seconds to mouth some platitude at me for something I've dedicated myself toward becoming good is the height of arragance.

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

hardly. And we aren't talking about *lip service* platitudes only, either.

For example, what if Kevin told you that you were really good at Kung Fu? Kevin is a Kung Fu master, who is world reknown. Would you say that his being insulted by you saying "no, I am not that good" was arrogance or that you were insulting his ability to judge good technique when he saw it?

While this quote is put in somewhat limited terms, the general idea is correct. And the main point, which you seem to have missed is that diagreeing with compliments is not humility, it is self-deprecation or self-effacement.

and it *is* rude.

[cynickal.livejournal.com]

One thing I'd like to add, is the force fed compliments.

Here are some comments I recieved because I chose to "defend" what I thought was a valid point of view that people who receive compliments can "humbly" communicate that they have an idea and a goal they would like to meet.

"diagreeing with compliments is not humility, it is self-deprecation or self-effacement"

"just because I want to do and know I can do better is no reason to lack the diplomacy or ability to be gracious."

"It also seems rather arrogant to put down a compliment from someone"

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it seems that you are force feeding people "compliments" Ramming the idea that you know better than they do and humiliating them if they don't agree with your opinion.

That scares me.

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

no. I think you are reading this wrong.

Watching all parts of that thread I have to say that there is a basic semantics argument happening. You are talking about making responses that *are* humble without being rude or self effacing (because you rock like that), whereas the people you are talking to are talking about people who say "no, I am not that good. I suck, and you don't know anything". Fundamentally, you all agree (including with me).

The detail is that we are saying that what you *do* is possible, humble, and not at all arrogant. ANd you are saying that what you do is possible, humble, and not at all arrogant. :D

[cynickal.livejournal.com]

I hope you're reading all this. :p

[staxxy.livejournal.com]

if you mean *me* - I read every comment made to all of my posts (assuming neither LJ nor hotmail eats them - And I often go back to insure I haven't missed one).

If you mean *lawst*, more than likely. She loves this kind of honest debate. :)